Curse

Spooky · Feb 18, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

By now, i'm sure that most people know this has become something of a monthly tradition with me - I like to gather up feedback from players during and after the BWEs so it can be passed on to those that need to see it. In this case, the big addition to this weekend is Old Ascalon, and it could use a lot of feedback.

What did you think of the area in general?
How well do you think it functions as a tutorial?
Did you look around for optional side quests, or just do what was necessary to move on?
Anything else you'd like to add?

Fezz · Feb 18, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

First, I looked really really nice. I think its a really cool tutorial, it gets away from the normal follow this path, kill this guy, now you can start, method that most games use. I think I did most of the side quests, but for some reason, on one of the quests some person was supposed to follow me, but she never would, so I gave up. I was a Monk promary and we where supposed to capture some guy.(sorry about lake of details, it was between 3-5a.m.). A little clearer warning about the no turning back after joining the acadamy would be nice, I know a lot of people didn't even know they where supposed to get a secondary.

HotSnack · Feb 18, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

I love the detail they put into the tutorial level, but I agree with Fezz how their should be more warnings before the transition. While you're supposed to have spent some time in the academy training as the world changes, it doesn't really convey that in the cutscene.

Maybe they could add one or two mini-missions inside the academy (I thought I was warped to the wrong place when it dumped me into a pvp game), that are tied towards the eventual invasion, this at least would make the transition to ruined ascalon seem less abrupt.

Uthar · Feb 18, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

I had the same problem Fezz did with the girl following me around. It was whats-her-name right beside Warmaster Whossname to whom we were not supposed to mention disloyalty to the King. The first two people as you entered Green Hills County. She was a Warrior, and just past them was a Monk- I can't remember these people's names!

I submitted a bug report anyway.

I spent a lot of time exploring and really liked the area as a whole. There were moments of special achievment, etc... I liked getting up into the mountains.

Eventually, of course, I felt the urge to move on, to better monsters and such. I was expecting a bad time with the opening PvP portion of the Academy, but that was... surprisingly easy.

MOOMANiBE · Feb 18, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I love the openness of it -- the way all the areas link up in multiple ways, as opposed to linearly in order. The quests, although more traditional MMO fare than the missions in the later game world, are fairly entertaining and do a good job of making me forget that the areas are instanced. The art design of course is brilliant. Easily one of the best-looking areas in the game that I've seen.

Oh, and are you gonna add anything to the northern area? I undertand it's supposed to be the charr army... (I even saw a bunch of them around the altar they use to ruin ascalon) There are players good enough to sneak around the charr there, but the lack of anything worthwhile in the area makes it feel a bit pointless :/

Oh, and the last cutscene. The charr cast a spell, and everyone fell down and went boom? It wasn't very clear what exactly happened. Here's hoping there's a cool FMV that makes more sense in the retail version

LordFu · Feb 19, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Yeah, I love the new area, too. It took me a while to figure out what direction was up, but once I got settled it was a blast. I'm actually looking forward to starting a new level 1 character to try to do more of the quests then I did. I agree that there should be a much clearer warning before going to the academy. I didn't have an issue with it, but people have. The Charr dance of death at the end of the Acadmey mission was pretty anti-climactic. I thought, "Hmm...If that's all it took, how did Ascalon last so long...LoL". It needs a more dramatic and exciting transition, IMO.

Cicciro · Feb 21, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19

The best looking area in the game by far. Decent introduction, but for a game as complex as Guild Wars for idiots to pick up on, it needs more description on what is going on. Also, way too boring after a while. Once you have explored it all, it makes it hard to want to go back. The reason for this being is the lack of social interaction.

My favorite thing about this area though? It is possible to leave with only one profession. Sure a lot of newbies do it, but this is something I have wanted out of Guild Wars since I started, the ability to be just one profession and specialize. Thanks for this.

It would be nice to add some missions to this area that are group oriented. Also, it sucks leaving this area and fighting the same low level beings for the next five hours until you reach mission three or four (this is also while exploring Old Ascalon and other things once you leave the newbie region). Perhaps a level cap of three?

Rakaija · Feb 21, 2005, 08:31 AM // 08:31

I liked it. But the only problem i could find is that the quests were hard to find, and that the no-turning back portion of the academy was hard to understand. I had made a level 7 Ranger, no second job, as it had no idea i was supposed to, and had barely gotten through the first defend the wall mission.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2005, 08:32 AM // 08:32

I will manage to wipe out those Charr at the Flame Temple at least once. I don't know how yet, but it will be done.

Peace,
-CxE

Cicciro · Feb 21, 2005, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Ensign, if we can group up to do it... I'll come with you

Exception · Feb 21, 2005, 08:38 AM // 08:38

it is so ironic to me that they made this exquisitely beautiful area... but after a little while you leave and can never go back. i also hated the running i had to do. the greatest thing about GW to me was that i could just do mission > autoteleport > next mission > etc.

Brett Kuntz · Feb 21, 2005, 08:41 AM // 08:41

I posted in the main suggestions, but I'll sum it up:

-I felt like it was made under the assumtion new people who play also happen to be idiots.

-It was slow paced, little to no action, lots of aimless running.

-It looked really nice, I mean really really nice.

If there was less running, started out with 5 skills, 10 stat points to alloc, and in the middle of a battle area, it would be much nicer. Hell you can even have it, if new players die in the new area within the first 5 minutes, they auto-res on spot 3 seconds later to kill kill kill some more.

Cruel Skeksis · Feb 21, 2005, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

-I felt like it was made under the assumtion new people who play also happen to be idiots.

In my suggestions I asked that they make some things even more 'simple stupid'. You are a veteran gamer Kunt0r, and I brought two people who had never played a video game in their life in to test the tutorial and in a few places it actually needs to treat you like you are even more of an idiot.

I don't think they were personally trying to offend you, but to help brand new gamers. In some places, it needs even more simplistic explanations for those exact users.

Lamaros · Feb 21, 2005, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky

By now, i'm sure that most people know this has become something of a monthly tradition with me - I like to gather up feedback from players during and after the BWEs so it can be passed on to those that need to see it. In this case, the big addition to this weekend is Old Ascalon, and it could use a lot of feedback.

What did you think of the area in general?
How well do you think it functions as a tutorial?
Did you look around for optional side quests, or just do what was necessary to move on?
Anything else you'd like to add?

I think I covered some of this in the suggestion thread, but just incase it gets lost in the rest of my ramblings there:

I really really like the area.
I think it does rather poorly as a tutorial (though that's not the area in itself so much as the communication to the user).
I looked around for as long as I could, before sadly realising the time had come to move on. (as there was nothing else there to do)
Why make such a nice, large, fun, pretty area when most people wont stay there long enough to see everything, and will never get to go back? It's a crying shame.

I would prefer a tutorial like back in the WPE (say for instance you start outside the town, some NPC is there, some relative or such "well, you're really sure you want to go to the city and join the army? I know life on the farm is tough, but.. fine fine, I can see it in your eyes. Well it can't be helped, but before you do go I'd like you to help me with a few things, and maybe I can teach you something in the process." He then gets you to do things like run over and get a weapon, clear out some bug that's harassing his field which drops some salvage item. He gives you a salvage kit and shows you how to work it. Does other basic things (like you did in the WPE). Then says something like "Well, I guess I've run out of things to keep you here with so I guess it's time for goodbye. I might not ever see you again (leading in to the whole 'searing' aspect)... Make sure to remember everything I said! If you ever run in to trouble I'm sure there will be people around to help you, good luck!" THEN you go to Old Ascalon. With the basics under control so you can get into the more open ended area without feeling lost. This might allow you to make this new fun area less babyish too, which makes it more fun for others.

Make the requirements for entering the academy also include getting a second class or at least highly recomend it.

Add a mission in the catacombs (and explain in more detail what it is and why it is there.. I mean, a whole city of undead right in sunny ascalon.. and yet peoples greatest fears are of the critters in their fields? Everyone is way too happy in ascalon considering the landscape is covered in raiders, bears, etc... I find some Royalist elementalist past all these raiders, yet no one ever bothers to care raiders are rampaging over the lands?)

More reference to the Charr (oh, the monk in the abbey had a vision eh? "oh well" says the good Lord when you tell him "lets hope it wasn't true". With a commander like that no wonder they got pwnt!. :P )

The Searing and the Academy:
Explain the fact that you survived the searing where the others did not because you were off on a mission away from the town. Add a sense of time in to it. You feel like you go straight out of the academy in to this dicky little punishment task. Make you feel like you earnt you spot in the academy and this is your mission. Perhaps have a cut scene before the mission bit, after the pvp battle (well done, you have entered into the rank of yadda yadda.. then you get the bully sergent "so you think you're a warrior now eh? well we'll see, I think you're soft, etc.. this is your first mission. you'll be up away from the main town on this one, no chance to run back home to your mum when things get rough so pay attention and listen up!)
Perhaps add some continuity by getting this bully sergent to come up to you when you finish the mission and see the searing, explaining it to you. "oh shit, something has happened.. the warnings were true! the Charr have unleashed some magic attack... damnit Tydus(I really should check that spelling) why didn't you listen!! look how the fields burn befure us.. no time to mourn, we must organise resistance. Fall in!")
Then have another cut scene with action of the battles in the aftermarth, leading up to you falling back to ascalon city where you start the real game.

Anyway...

I think they did a good job, especialy given that it was probably quite rushed in order to give us a look at it this BWE.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2005, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cicciro

Ensign, if we can group up to do it... I'll come with you

Oh, you can pair up for it, just like every other newbie area.

The problem?

For those who haven't been there, here's the synopsis - four bosses - Elementalist, Mesmer, Monk, and Necromancer. Three packs of three Charr - two Axe Fiends and a Martyr - as well as several other packs of 5-7 assorted Charr that patrol in and out of the area. These aren't your favorite level 3-4, Fort Ranik Charr - no, these are level 7 beasties.

You can't pull one Charr at a time - you have to take the whole pack. They'll follow you to the ends of the level, they never retreat back to guard a set point. To a pair of low level characters with starter gear and skills, they're a bloody nightmare. Of course, you can't snipe any of them, either.

With a pair of level 9s I was able to pick off the packs of 3 without too much trouble. The packs of 5 are lethal, though - they stack Conjure / Siphon, and you just can't race it with healing. I can knock out a couple of 'em, but eventually you're worn down, someone breaks, and then everyone dies.

It's clearly a 3-4 person area, but you're stuck with a limit 2 - hence, wiping out the flame temple is the 'lowbie challenge'.

Of course, when you want to do something a little less trying, there's always appledance:

I swear, I had more fun with the magical anti-gravity apples than anything else this weekend.

Peace,
-CxE

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 21, 2005, 09:27 AM // 09:27

lol, i did that apple thing too... i just tell ppl i glued it on for stage show purpose.

I been to the charr area as well... really got our butt whooped... We cant really take them on or anything... I think we have the best chance if we are able to drag a few other species of mob to the charr... then succefully let them fight each other, while picking on the charr one by one... of course... tough >_< it would really take practice..

Klael · Feb 21, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

As a tutorial map, its too big. Don't get me wrong. I like the expansiveness of pre-seared Ascalon but to function as a tutorial, there has to be more control. For those of us that have been playing since the WPE and the BWEs, everything is pretty obvious and we just have to know where to find what we need. For new players, its quite overwhelming to be dumped into one huge town with so many things happening at once. Information overload I would say.

Other than that, the place is awesome. Too bad we can't go back to it later. I've only encountered one quest which has follow up quests. It would be nice to have more of those.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2005, 09:50 AM // 09:50

The quests were pretty reasonable, in general. Some required you to run around a bit much, but most of 'em were the fast paced, run and go style that I love about the game. The 'collector' quests were awful. Go pharm this stuff? Whatever. At least let people craft the stuff they get from the pharming quests, instead of playing the 'oh, where's the dork that will give me new boots for skeletal arms or whatever?' game.

I'd like more control over the starter skills I get. Being able to not take the Res Signet is a huge bonus in my book - once you're high level it's just annoying having to scroll past that pile every time I want to change skills. Expand on that - let people accept or decline individual starter skills. Give people a dozen to choose from at the different trainers.

The secondary profession needs to be a bit more prominent - or, more importantly, the 'no turning back' nature of entering the academy needs to be made mind-numbingly clear. Being able to play around with the secondaries was a nice touch, but that needs to be expanded upon - a one shot test of Conjure Phantasm and Imagined Burden, without attributes, doesn't really tell me much about the Mesmer except that it's a bad Necromancer. More skills to test, more to choose from.

Everything in old Ascalon needs to be doable in the post-searing world. You don't want people crippling themselves if they don't get their second profession, or their belt pouch, or whatever. It doesn't have to be pretty, but it should be there.

The Catacombs are gorgeous. That they aren't accessable outside the first couple hours of the game is a tragedy.

Let people charm the Fern Lizards. And Bears. And Moss Spiders. Is that really going to break anything?

The arrows on the minimap for quests need to be made more prominent for new players. For those of you who missed it, when you clicked on a subquest in your quest log, you got a little green arrow on your minimap that pointed you towards the objective. That feature was, in a word, amazing. Every new player should be made aware of the arrow, it's a huge time saver.

I enjoyed the lowbie area a whole lot more than I expected I would - I went there whenever I just wanted to zone out, which was pretty much the entire weekend. Great job guys. Just do some debugging / touchup work, and you're good to go.

Peace,
-CxE

Brett Kuntz · Feb 21, 2005, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruel Skeksis

In my suggestions I asked that they make some things even more 'simple stupid'. You are a veteran gamer Kunt0r, and I brought two people who had never played a video game in their life in to test the tutorial and in a few places it actually needs to treat you like you are even more of an idiot.

I don't think they were personally trying to offend you, but to help brand new gamers. In some places, it needs even more simplistic explanations for those exact users.

When I first played GW in E3, I had no issues picking up the gameplay and going with it, and neither did my friends. And back then, there wasn't any info on it, it was all self-taught, straight forward. Now when I introduce new friends to it, people I've PvP'd with for years and years, they quit the game within an hour or two due to it being horrendously confusing and boring. Half the time I was in the new area, I was at a complete loss as to what to do, and I've played the game for many many hours. It sucks because the few people who quit due to the ultra-bunk intro stuff, haven't and probably wont ever try the game again, and these are long-time clanmates. I don't know what Anet is thinking, I don't know who came up with the idea, but they should seriously take a step back, play some online games, and then go back to the drawing board. It seems as if the people who designed this new area haven't ever played an online game in their life. My mind can't even comprehend how someone can like this new area. Even my hardcore PvE buddy's don't like it. One of em quit the new area after 30 minutes saying, and I quote "wow this game has gone to s---". And I agree.

E3 = More fun then I've ever had, coolest intro to a game
Oct/Nov/Dec = Uhhhhh??? I hope this is just experimentation
Feb = Is this a joke? This idea is 1000x worse then bags.

I'm looking forward to March, can't wait to see how much worse Anet can make it. And thank god (for now) we can skip it all together. For retail.....gonna pay someone to play it for me.

I could write for ever and ever how dumb of an idea it is, and provide hundreds of solutions to it, but there's no point. It will continue on a path of bunkness never getting fixed, who knows how many more people will turn away from the game just due to a simple introduction Anet somehow managed to break. If I didn't play in E3, but started playing today, there's no way I would consider this game being even mediocre. 30 mins in trashland and I'd hit "exit" then uninstall the game for ever, making sure everyone I knew didn't bother wasting time with it.

Moon · Feb 21, 2005, 11:00 AM // 11:00

I really really liked the starting area. This is my first BWE, and I totally am in love with the game. One complaint I have is that the whole "YOU CAN'T EVER GO BACK" should be much more blatantly obvious before joining the academy. I did it and realized little Thom will never get his cape =(.

But besides that I was in AWE at how expansive the starting area is. I explored for over an hour and I don't think I got near uncovering all of it. Theres tons of little quests and fun things to do, one thing I would suggest though is that they make the collectors a quest. A couple times I'd end up with 5 seeds or rocks or whatever and I had completely forgotten who was asking for them to begin with. A couple of the quests also didn't update, and I /bug'd them. But hey, it's still beta and from what I understand this is the first time anyone has gotten to play with this area, so it's going to be buggy.

I'm a huge fan of PvE and PvP combat, as soon as I entered the post apocalyptic world I jumped into the arena (even though I was only level 5 or something haha) and my team did great, we went for something like 10 rounds before eventually losing.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that saying this opening area sucks dumbfounded me enough to write out this post. That has to be the most complete, comprehensive starting zone ever seen by the MMORPG world. The fact that you can spend HOURS of time there and not do everything, or you can walk over and immediately skip all of the opening content by just hoping into the academy. It's mind boggling they would devote that much time to an area that tons of people are just going to skip over.

It gets two big thumbs up from me, I hope they do keep it in the final release of the game.